"3,500 Applications for One Marketing Assistant"

Andrew Harvey has been at VMA Group for just over twelve years, the last several as Group CEO of a business that turns 48 in November. He started out in marketing himself, five years in financial services at ING and NFU Mutual, studying for his CIM diploma on the side, before moving into recruitment full time. Twenty-odd years on, he still reckons those early years in marketing are what help him most in the job he does today.

He sat down for a chat with Rich Fitzmaurice, Editor-in-Chief.

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Rich: From where I'm sitting, the job market seems really, really tough for marketers. Is that what you're seeing?

Andrew: I get asked this a lot, and I like to back it up with stats rather than just a personal view. My honest answer is it's been pretty flat for four years. We had a spike in 2022 coming out of COVID, and it's been flat since. There are two things I look at every month. One is government data. Back in September 2022, unemployment was 3.6%, it's now 4.9%. There were 1.3 million jobs being advertised, today there's about 700,000, almost half. Youth unemployment's actually dropped a bit, from 19.2% to 16.2%.

Andrew: The other thing is a report KPMG produce every month with the Recruitment and Employment Confederation, based on interviewing around 400 recruitment companies. It shows the market across the last 20 years, and it goes up and down like a fiddler's elbow until 2022. Then it drops like a stone and flatlines. It's never done that before. The permanent job market dropped month on month for 45 consecutive months, right up until June or July this year.

Andrew: But there are some positive signs. That decline has stopped, and we're starting to see an increase in interim, day rate, fractional, whatever you want to call it. We're seeing it ourselves too. If you look at VMA Group's vacancies across July and August this year versus last year, we've had a 12% increase. I'm hopeful we've hit the bottom and it's starting to bounce, though I don't think it'll be a quick or dramatic uplift given everything else going on economically.

Rich: Is that the same across seniority, from entry level to middle to CMOs, or are there patches of green shoots?

Andrew: I'm very mindful of giving out information that isn't factually correct, so I'll only speak for what I see across VMA Group's workload. We saw a downturn at all levels and in all sectors, and now we're seeing a bit of business coming through at all levels too, in multiple sectors. I think it'd be wrong to say one industry's doing brilliantly and hiring loads while another isn't. We've seen impact across the board, and now I think we're seeing a bit of improvement across the board as well.

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Andrew: Any marketing position we advertise on LinkedIn will get over 100 applications, without doubt. I actually hired a marketing assistant for VMA Group earlier this year and got three and a half thousand applications for that one role.

Any marketing position we advertise on LinkedIn will get over 100 applications, without doubt.

Rich: What's your opinion on the quality of the CVs you're getting? I imagine a lot of them have been run through Claude or ChatGPT rather than crafted over a couple of days like they used to be. Is that making your life easier or harder?

Andrew: It's a really interesting question, and whether it's what people expect me to say or not, I think it's making the recruiters' job harder. I say this with respect to a lot of people, including myself as an ex-marketer. It used to surprise me how many human-written CVs had spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. You could make a judgement on someone from how they'd written it, what they'd included. Now, particularly at marketing assistant level, the vast majority of CVs you get are brilliantly well written, no spelling mistakes, no issues. But then you start to meet people, and the reality of their ability becomes far more apparent than it ever was on paper.

Andrew: I do wonder if that comes full circle. As more organisations start using AI to recruit as well, it might become incredibly difficult in five years' time to really understand who's good and who isn't. The human part of the recruitment cycle might become ever more important again, not less.

Rich: It might go the way of everything else in marketing and swing back to old school. Actually, part of the process becomes: invite them in, they're human, put them under pressure, have a real conversation, no AI assistants to be seen.

Andrew: Absolutely. We've been speaking to a client who's a very well-known FTSE organisation, hiring senior marketing people just short of £100,000. The first interview now is with an AI video bot. You get asked a question, you respond, it responds back to you. I'm not convinced. I'm really not convinced that's the best way to hire senior, experienced talent. And that's not a push for recruitment agencies, I'm just not convinced it's the best experience, or that it's going to get the best people. There's a danger people get missed.

Rich: Perhaps it's a personality thing, and I don't speak for everyone, but if someone was interested in hiring me and the first touch point was that they can't even be bothered to pick up the phone, I'm talking to a robot, I'm not sure I'd go through that.

Andrew: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Rich: I'm particularly worried about entry level roles. Where's the next generation of marketers coming from, especially with the Labour government making it particularly unattractive to take a risk on people with no experience? What advice would you have for those guys coming out of university, doing their CIM qualifications like we did ourselves, trying to look for that first role? Do they stand a chance?

Andrew: I don't want to sound negative, but honestly, I think it's really tough. Going back to that graduate marketing assistant role, three and a half thousand applications, the one thing that did make a difference was internship experience, or pro bono experience. I recognise not everyone can afford to work for free for six months, there are real constraints there. But if you have the opportunity, or want to be proactive and approach an organisation and say, can I come and refresh some of your collateral, help update your website, help run some events, I think for graduates specifically that kind of experience is now the differentiator. Having a marketing degree or a PR degree, even with a great grade, unfortunately isn't necessarily going to make you stand out in a market this competitive.

Rich: There was a time it was, okay, you're from Red Brick or Russell Group, you got a 2:1 or a first, you're in a good position. Then it became about extracurriculars, did you do a Duke of Edinburgh, did you have a Saturday job. Now it's, how did you go and hustle, how did you make stuff happen, by hook or by crook, get some experience. And you hinted at it, some kids have more privilege and less financial constraint to be able to do that.

Andrew: Yeah, and one of the other things that's maybe easier for people to do, and I've seen this personally make a big difference: two marketing graduates apply for the same job, one sends a straightforward one or two page CV. The other sends the same CV, but with an embedded link to a website, a portfolio, something they've built. You click through and there's imagery, case study work, maybe video. That's something people can build in their evenings and weekends if they've got another job funding the bills and can't do pro bono work. It's still very much the minority who do it, which is exactly why it stands out.

Rich: Marketing at its heart is all about standing out, about differentiation. So that's one way they can take that shift towards AI tools and SaaS platforms and use it: get free trials, teach themselves some no-code, low-code stuff, and make that reference happen.

Andrew: Definitely, for sure.

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Rich: Let's move to fractional. Fractional CMO is probably one of the most popular job titles on LinkedIn at the moment, you can't go a day without seeing a few posts. What's your personal definition of what a fractional CMO actually is? I feel it's a well-known term without a common definition.

Andrew: You've put me on the spot there. It's an interesting one. I'm not sure there is a common definition. You'll see an individual who, in the olden days, would've been called an interim marketing director, doing that for ten or fifteen years, who now calls themselves a fractional CMO. I'd say one of the differences is you might think of an interim as five days a week for six months, versus a fractional providing consultancy advice for a week here, a week there, or against a particular priced project.

Andrew: One of the challenges, and I say this with the greatest respect, is you see people who've worked permanently for 20 years, find themselves between permanent roles, update their CV and profile and position themselves as a fractional CMO so they can pick up those projects. Which is fine, they've got brilliant experience. But it becomes harder to define. Is it someone with lots of experience working on a consultancy basis, or someone who happens to be available to pick up non-permanent work? I've learned over the years that it's dangerous to just look at job titles. It has to be about someone's actual experience, and a conversation around that experience.

Rich: I feel exactly the same, because from one end of the spectrum I saw, relatively recently, copywriter slash fractional CMO. I thought, that's a bit too much of a stretch for me. But then I think about intent, this person's trying to earn a living, trying to put food on the table, I respect that. So, is it my ego that's a little bit offended?

Andrew: As I say, it's quite hard to define. In my mind it's an experienced CMO who's had a couple of roles, can only afford to give a fraction of their time, but has that broad demonstrable experience, has been in the seat, and can bring judgement and accountability and make stuff happen. But it's varied, and a lot of people are just trying to survive, which is totally understandable, and I'd do the same.

A client very rarely comes to me and says, I need a fractional CMO.

Andrew: Maybe the real question isn't what people call themselves, it's how those opportunities come to market. A client very rarely comes to me and says, I need a fractional CMO. They'll say, we've got this marketing challenge, our CMO's gone off sick, we've got this business change or product issue, we need some interim support, a contractor. What I'd do, what any experienced recruiter would do, is take the brief, interrogate it, work out what the organisation actually needs, then find who can deliver it, irrespective of the job title they give themselves.

Andrew: One of the things people maybe don't realise from a recruiter's perspective: if someone's been working permanently for 20 years, used to that remuneration package, the mortgage, the family, and they take on a six month project, the danger is halfway through they get offered a big permanent CMO role paying loads more, and understandably they take it. That's a barrier for me sometimes, thinking, I've got people here who've been doing day rate, interim, fractional work for the last ten years, I'm just not convinced you're going to stay the course for six months if a juicy permanent role comes along.

Rich: That's a really interesting perspective, I hadn't thought of it from the recruiter's side. And one of the things I see is people jumping from full-time roles into fractional gigs and struggling to adapt, because the dynamics are different. They haven't got the full-time job title, the salary, some of them struggle to even get the work laptop and the email address. They're seen as a consultant, a contractor, not one of them. They're seen as expensive, even though you've got VAT, pension, healthcare, sick pay and corporation taxes not being paid for you.

Andrew: Absolutely, definitely. I'd be mindful people need an income, and I'd agree with what you said. If someone's been a permanent CMO and really wants to be a permanent CMO, I'd say stick with that search as long as you can, rather than going down the fractional route while you're looking for the next permanent role. One of the test questions I used to ask people who came to me as a permanent CMO and said, Andrew, I'm a bit bored, I think I want to be fractional, I fancy the idea of that, was: why don't you resign tomorrow? Resign tomorrow, then give me a call next week and we'll have a chat.

Andrew: They'd say, what do you mean? And I'd say, because that's the headspace you need to be in. You don't have a permanent role to fall back on. There's no guarantees. Every time you get up in the morning, it's, where am I going to be three months from now? And if the reaction is, oh my God, I'm never going to do that, what about my mortgage, then that's a fair, honest answer to whether you're really in the headspace to be a fractional CMO, whatever that actually means. It's very rare someone's going to move into a fractional role and give their current company three month’s notice before starting. You've got to be immediately available, and that's a completely different position and approach for people to be in.

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Rich: What's the general vibe in terms of where senior marketing positions are reporting into? From my seat it seems like Chief Commercial Officer is turning into Chief Revenue Officer, with a head of sales or head of marketing reporting into them, rather than a CMO reporting into Exco. Is that consistent with your broader view?

Andrew: I don't have any particular data on it, but I'd still say the majority of roles report into the Chief Commercial Officer. You do see all sorts of weird and wonderful things in different organisations, sometimes it's just a people thing, this person's been here a long time, they end up managing marketing and HR and IT and everyone reports into them. Someone once said to me, and I can't remember how many years ago, that ultimately it doesn't matter where a role reports into or who it reports into. What matters is the quality of the people at the table, the quality of the thinking, the teamwork. If that person at senior level has a good commercial understanding of the business, whether they're in finance or sales or wherever, it's about the quality of the relationship rather than the specific reporting line. I'd stand by that.

Rich: You can't move an inch without seeing a story about AI and how it's going to take jobs, how it's changing the way we work. What are employers actually looking for? What do they mean by AI literacy? Do they want people hands in the weeds building stuff with AI, or just using assistants like Claude and ChatGPT?

Andrew: I was talking on a webinar about this yesterday. I think a lot of people are talking about AI, but far fewer are actually doing stuff with it. The average client we work with will say, yes, we need to hire someone who really understands AI because we don't yet, we need to bring that talent in. It'd be rare for us to work with an organisation saying their marketing team is fully plugged in and they just need someone at the same level to slot in. A lot of organisations are talking about it a lot, and are going to be slow to embrace it.

Andrew: I say this with great respect, but I think what holds it back, irrespective of the technology, is human behaviour. Human behaviour changes over time, but not as quickly as the technology does. Most people are not investing time and energy into learning the latest AI tools. We did some research a few years ago about intranets, and 70% of people said we're terrible at digital, we need to be better. A lot of the basics aren't even being done right, let alone the latest AI. Most people go to work, deliver the day job, it's pressurised, a million things to juggle, and as soon as they finish they go home, pick up the kids, feed them, go to swimming class, badminton class. They're not investing two or three hours a night building stuff. Some people are, but the majority aren't. I think people will be slower to embrace it than we probably think.

Rich: And there's a lot of noise about it too. I call them champagne CMOs. You go to a particular publisher's conference, up on stage it's the same blue-chip logos because that's what looks good in lights on the programme, and they're talking about using AI left, right and centre, it's embedded in their team and their outputs, we're AI enabled. Then you talk to individual members of that team, and no, it's not. There's always a blurry line between AI assistance, Claude, Perplexity, ChatGPT, and actual AI implementation. I had a conversation last night with a very senior person at a global firm, and it was, okay, we're going to implement AI chat on our website. I said, where's your customer interaction, do you have complaint lines, service desk, SDRs? No. So I'd be very wary of them plugging in AI if they haven't done the hard yards of documenting their flows and what to do in particular situations.

And one of the things worth saying: a lot of people at the moment say, I can't get a job because AI is eating my job, taking over my job. That's not what I hear when I speak to clients. They're not recruiting because they don't have the budget, it's more expensive than ever to hire people, to pay the national insurance, the minimum wage. That's what's holding back hiring, not AI taking people's jobs, not yet.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And one of the things worth saying: a lot of people at the moment say, I can't get a job because AI is eating my job, taking over my job. That's not what I hear when I speak to clients. They're not recruiting because they don't have the budget, it's more expensive than ever to hire people, to pay the national insurance, the minimum wage. That's what's holding back hiring, not AI taking people's jobs, not yet. If a client says they need to hire a new head of marketing for a division, they'll say we just can't afford it. They won't say don't worry, we've replaced them with AI. They'll say we haven't got the budget, the company's not hitting the numbers.

Andrew: I don't want to get too political, but I do agree that increased regulation around hiring and firing, and what's coming down the track, will have a detrimental impact on organisations hiring. I've worked in this industry for 20 odd years, I run a business, I hire people, and at times I've had to exit people, and it's an expensive, difficult exercise. VMA Group used to have offices in Europe, and I have no intention whatsoever of opening up in any of those countries again. I think we can work with clients in those countries from London, but the employment regulation and pressure on business is too much. I'd be sad to see that happen to the UK, I think it'd be bad for jobs.

Rich: I think that's a useful balance to the narrative. I mentioned it to the CEO of a prominent e-learning platform recently, their growth rate last year was 18%, which is fantastic, anything in double figures you're doing a good job, and they feel they can't afford to hire.

Andrew: Exactly. I get the importance of treating employees fairly, paying taxes and minimum wages, all of that. But I do think right now it's having a detrimental impact on employment opportunity.

Rich: In terms of specific job titles, are there any you feel are hot right now? And the flip side, any that are particularly at risk, or you're seeing fewer and fewer mandates for?

Andrew: This is a bit of a generalisation, because we work on every element of the marketing and comms mix, everything from pricing manager to public affairs director, so it's difficult to say. One thing I would say, and I think it's a sad thing to say because I feel for people in that industry, is design, graphic design and copywriting. I empathise with people who've got a lot of experience in those areas but are really struggling to find work. We do not see many requests at all from clients to recruit those roles these days.

Rich: It's ironic, because I think they've never been more important, having someone with a fantastic eye for design and the ability to pull images together, and good content, given the amount of sheer AI slop that's out there. But what I'm seeing is the volume of those roles within each organisation is just slimming down, and that's having a massive effect.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

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Rich: As a closing question, what's the single best thing a marketer could do this year to become more placeable? What would help them stand out among the volume of candidates?

Andrew: If there's one tip I'd give any marketer looking for a job this year, and it might surprise people, it's that the bigger differentiator between someone getting a job and not is purely interview preparation. People get jobs if they're active in looking, but irrespective of how many roles they apply for, it's the preparation they put into the interview process that matters most. Based on the research we do and the clients we work with, if an organisation is recruiting a marketing director, they'll interview somewhere between four and six people face to face. In this day and age, with all the technology available, all six of them will absolutely be able to do the job. There's no doubt about that. So, the question isn't, can you do the job. The question is, why are you better than the other five?

Andrew: People say, well what if I'm not better, how can I prove I am? The answer is interview preparation, because it's also true that of those six people, it isn't necessarily the most experienced or the cheapest who gets the job, it's the person who prepares the best. That process is often three interviews, 180 minutes. You have 180 minutes to prove you're the best person, and to prove it you need to prep the questions you'll be asked, the examples you'll give, the questions you want to ask them. Interview preparation is the biggest thing people need to get right to secure a job in the next 12 months, above anything else. Most people think, I'll spend a couple of hours on Tuesday getting ready for Thursday. Forget it.

Andrew: You need to prep like your life depends on it. People come to me and say, Andrew, I think it's mad I didn't get that job, my experience, I did the presentation, they've stolen my ideas, I didn't get it. I have to say, I'm really sorry, but there were five other people who could also do the job and gave a brilliant presentation. You didn't get it because someone within that hour convinced the organisation they were better placed than you. Even if, and this is often the case, they didn't have as much experience and weren't the best candidate for the job, in the interview process they convinced the organisation, through preparation, that they were. That's the one thing I'd like people to take away. If you remember nothing else about your job search over the next 12 months, spend more time preparing than you think you probably should, because you need to convince people you're better than all of your peers at doing the job.

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Andrew Harvey is Group CEO of VMA Group, an international marketing, communications and digital recruitment consultancy that turns 48 this November.